RB project Updates

[MalteJK]

What do you do to your brakes ? Cannot remember having read about your plans so far about it...
And ... any new pics ?

[ossme]

it sure did, good luck you are optimistic though on the gas as you will need some everyday - well at least mine does

HE HE HE ! Fuel and Jeeps are not friends anyway !

Thanks man, I hope that things will end up as planned !

[MalteJK]

HE HE HE ! Fuel and Jeeps are not friends anyway !

So true. I'm happy now with taking around 16-22liters /100km ... depends on relaxed mode or a bit non-relaxed driving.
racing = 40+liters / 100km

Hope your project goes on and ranger is able to deliver soon ...

[ossme]

What do you do to your brakes ? Cannot remember having read about your plans so far about it...
And ... any new pics ?

The brakes have nothing major. It will get an upgraded Black Magic, pads, rotors, and calipers. while the rear will get a fresh overhaul of stock equipments.

No updated pictures yet. But I'm afraid that there is only bad news ..

- the CV shafts turned out to be for JK and not TJ. I emailed the company and I'm waiting for their replay. But I don't expect any new Shafts before next Monday at the very optimistic approach !

- Fixing the front axle took longer than expected. They will send it back to Abu Dhabi Tomorrow.

Those two points mean that the car might not be ready even for next week's trips ..

Hope your project goes on and ranger is able to deliver soon ...

Ranger told me that There will be no Highline kit before March. Which means that I will not finish the Car before the season end ..

[MalteJK]

The brakes have nothing major. It will get an upgraded Black Magic, pads, rotors, and calipers. while the rear will get a fresh overhaul of stock equipments.

ah yes these ones must have overlooked you're changing the calipers as well ...
Read only good about the black magic stuff btw. - dual piston calipers should really bring your braking to new levels ...
and this is needed for the 35'' for sure... i'm looking into the ksport or SSBC front calipers btw. but i need a bit more beef for the 37'' anyway.

No updated pictures yet. But I'm afraid that there is only bad news ..

- the CV shafts turned out to be for JK and not TJ. I emailed the company and I'm waiting for their replay. But I don't expect any new Shafts before next Monday at the very optimistic approach !

 
ouch ... thats not good news

- Fixing the front axle took longer than expected. They will send it back to Abu Dhabi Tomorrow.
Those two points mean that the car might not be ready even for next week's trips ..

uff ok i can sing a song about having my car in the workshop as well ... at least you have
already a decent front axle

Ranger told me that There will be no Highline kit before March. Which means that I will not finish the Car before the season end ..

this is probably the worst news.
But there's a way to come around that ... just remove the fenders completely until you have the highline kit.
So you're not gonna miss a trip - and your car will look really badass ...

When i lost my rear fender - i really enjoyed the view over the rotating tires ... although it was a bit scary for the taxis ... they looked at me as if i'll crawl over them on the next occasion ... hihi

[SSS]

Hala Osama,

please allow me some slight "adjustments" :

Drawbacks:

2- Bigger tires needs bigger lifts. The bigger the lifts, the more complicated things become and you start losing stock ride performance. Bigger lifts will also mean higher Center of gravity. Higher Center of gravity increases the chances of roll overs ..
Nope: Bigger tires need more fender clearance OR more bumpstopping ... fortunately you are adding a Higline of the fenders which basically means that you can maintain stock uptravel without messing too much with bump stop extensions... but be aware that flexing the tire will tilt it as well ... bigger diameter then means spring perch inner fender contact if the wheels are not back spaced correctly Suspension lift is NOT necessary ... it only increases/regains possible uptravel of over bump stopped systems
...
4- Bigger tires cost more. Not Because of the price of tires, but due to the extra things that needs to be changed in the car. For TJs, we need to change the rear drive shaft, axle shafts, control arms, rear and Front track bars. This does not include the other stuff that you will do to fit 33" tires.
Nope: the rear driveshaft has only to be changed for your higher torque output of the stroker, not for the tires.
Axle shafts the same (maybe a little for the higher side ways lever effect of the bigger tires). REAR AND FRONT track bars are ABSOLUTELY fine with just 1.75" of suspension lift!!! and they are stronger than ANY aftermarket trackbar! you only need new adjustable trackbars to recenter your axles with suspension lifts > 2.5" AND 12.5 wide tires!...
FOR SURE you have to change/reinforce the axle housings ... but you already do. Then you will notice a higher failure rate of your front knuckle ball joints and unit bearings

...

Tire impact on Performance:
...
4) Since the tires are not much heavier than the 33" I currently have, There will be no noticeable brake performance degradation. But thanks to SSS, I will be also upgrading my brakes. So, the overall performance will actually improve.
Brake performance will always suffer from the lever of the larger diameter of tires when moving against the small diameter rotors with single piston calipers. It is not just the weight of the rotating mass.

Tire impact on the ride height and geometry:

Rust Bucket was designed by fallowing the LCG concept(low center of Gravity). The design will allow me to run 35" tires with only 1.75" of suspension lift. This provides many benefits over the standard TJ setup.

1) The Center of gravity is lower (hence the name ). This mean that I'm actually running at a lower risk of rolling over despite the bigger tires!
Nope: The center of gravity is higher than stock. 1.75" suspension plus 2" ((35-31)/2) more through the tire is equivalent to a 2.75" lift and 1" ((33-31)/2) through tires ... and still higher than stock additionally you will be lifting tranny and TC case from below frame postion to at frame position with your Tummy Tuck!
LCG build defenition: less raise of center of gravity pro 1" tire size increase ... in other words: your tire size went from 31 to 35 (4" tire size increase) but without suspension lift your center of gravity moved 2" only up (<< 4")! would be ultra LCG build ...
even with the 1.75" suspension lift your center of gravity moved 2"+1.75" inch up (< 4" still LCG)!
Your TJ will have the same HEIGHT with 35" tires and 1.75" lift as a TJ with 33" and 2.75" lift! But you will have 1" more clearance under the diff and even without tummy tuck a slightly higher center of gravity (because of the diffs)

sorry ... but the build threads will be read by generations (hopefully) of ad4x4's, so I had to fix it!

[ossme]

Nice replay SSS !

I really didn't want to put much details into it but thanks for doing so !

I totally agree with what you said. Here are some extra comments and clarifications for the readers ..

... Bigger tires need more fender clearance OR more bumpstopping ..... Suspension lift is NOT necessary ... it only increases/regains possible uptravel of over bump stopped systems

For people who read this and scratched their heads, here is an explanation:

Bump stops will be useful to prevent the tires from bumping into the fenders. They are also useful for other things like preventing the shocks from bottoming out and the steering components from hitting the axle.

Bump stops allow us to install bigger tires by reducing the car's up travel. Up travel is usually as important as down travel and is specially important in fast paced off-roading.

Here where body lifts and suspension lifts come into picture. Let us take RB as an example:

with 31" tires, 2.5" of coil lift and no bump stops I had 4.5" of up travel.

with 33" tires, 2.5" of coil lift my tires were rubbing my fenders. To fix this I have installed 2" of bump stops which prevented the rubbing issue. Now however, My up travel is limited to 3.5". To regain what I lost I can do one of the following:

1- Keep the bump stops and install a 3.5" coil or add a 1" coil spacer to the existing 2.5" lift.
2- Reduce the bump stops to only 1" and then add 1" of body lift.

both in the end will give me 4.5" of up travel !

Having said all of this, there is a limit of how much Bump stops you can add before need a suspension lift. If RB had the stock lift & 33" tires then my up travel will be limited to 1" !

P1110435.jpg

Needless to say that a 35" will not fit a stock TJ..

fortunately you are adding a Higline of the fenders which basically means that you can maintain stock uptravel without messing too much with bump stop extensions...

again, for people didn't get this:

Instead of raising the whole body. Some people modify the front and rear fenders to allow more space for tire travel. Some people simply cut their body work up. while others use kits like AEV Highline or Metal Cloaks. the AEV high line kit will give RB an Extra space up to 3.75" for the tires to travel.

lauriemo2.jpg

a 35" tire will usually require a 3" of bump stop/body lift to clear the fenders. But 0 is needed when using the AEV high line.

but be aware that flexing the tire will tilt it as well ... bigger diameter then means spring perch inner fender contact if the wheels are not back spaced correctly

The AEV high line Kit is also different as it is deeper inward. I'm hopping that this will not be a problem. Having said that, I think that my steering components will be hitting the diff cover (I see some marks). So, I might need to add an 1" bump stop to the front.. I will do some cycling after the high line kit installation and see what comes up..

Regarding the 35" with stock suspension and AEV. that would provide extremely limited up travel. ideally, I want something between 4" and 5" of up travel.

DSC_0200.jpg

Brake performance will always suffer from the lever of the larger diameter of tires when moving against the small diameter rotors with single piston calipers. It is not just the weight of the rotating mass.

I totally forgot about this point. Thank you for the info !

I would love to have a dual piston caliper. But I can't ..

Nope: the rear driveshaft has only to be changed for your higher torque output of the stroker, not for the tires.
Axle shafts the same (maybe a little for the higher side ways lever effect of the bigger tires). REAR AND FRONT track bars are ABSOLUTELY fine with just 1.75" of suspension lift!!! and they are stronger than ANY aftermarket trackbar! you only need new adjustable trackbars to recenter your axles with suspension lifts > 2.5" AND 12.5 wide tires!...
FOR SURE you have to change/reinforce the axle housings ... but you already do. Then you will notice a higher failure rate of your front knuckle ball joints and unit bearings

Sorry for the confusion. I was not talking about RB Build. I was talking about a standard build that have something like 4" coil lift for 35" tires.

With this standard setup:
- With 4" of coil lift on short TJs, Something needs to be done for the rear drive shaft to eliminate vibration. transfer case drop might work. But ideally, an SYE or an adjustable (or correcting) track bars or both have to be fitted to compensate for the drive shaft angle.

- with 4" of coil lift, the stock front and rear track bar will not be enough to recenter the tires under the car. So those need to be changed as well.

But I don't need to care about any of that with my setup !

Nope: The center of gravity is higher than stock.

OOPS, Sorry again! I was not comparing an AEV TJ with a stock TJ. I was comparing the following:

AEV Higline Jeep: 35" tires, 1.75" lift kit and 0 bump stops
Standard TJ setup: 35" tires, 4" of lift, and 3" bump stops (or any other equivalent combo of coil+body lift setup).

I don't see anyway to achieve the stock TJ center of gravity. Unless somehow some body managed to actually lower the Jeep while fitting bigger tires...

I also wasn't comparing a LCG 35" Jeeps to a 33" standard Jeeps when it comes to center of gravity because doing so will open a whole can of warms !

But I would say that overall, I would like to believe that Rust Bucket will have a center of gravity that is close to what a standard lifted 33" Jeep have!

Your TJ will have the same HEIGHT with 35" tires and 1.75" lift as a TJ with 33" and 2.75" lift! But you will have 1" more clearance under the diff and even without tummy tuck ...

Hmmmmm .. will I ?? That is good news if it was true !

This is how I calculated it ..

If X = the stock TJ skid plate hight.

then Rust Bucket Skid plate hight = 1.75 + 2 = 3.75
Standard Jeep + 3.5 + 33" = 3.5 + 1 = 4.5
Standard Jeep + 2.75 + 33" = 2.75 + 1 = 3.75

So Best case scenario, I will have the same skid plate hight or lower (if the standard Jeep was higher or my Rust Bucket was lower) .. am I missing something ?

Thanks for the continues help and support SSS !

[SSS]

basically d'accord !

(except some small glitches with the numbers, like stock uptravel numbers , uptravel after lift wo/ bumpstops numbers... w/ bumpstops etc.)

But I am really glad that you have the right understanding and that you gave NICE examples regarding bodylift benefits and highline benefits!!!

Regarding the red AEV Highlined TJ : it belongs to OmanJeep aka Laurie Bridger who has (had?) the website Oman4x4, but he lives in Dubai and is active in Dubai4x4 ... really nice and competent guy who did the first (and so far only?) AEV highline in the region many years ago at Robbie's Garage in DXB!
I got a lot of inspiration from the Infos he spread on his website and on US forums

regarding :
"So Best case scenario, I will have the same skid plate hight or lower (if the standard Jeep was higher or my Rust Bucket was lower) .. am I missing something ? "
Yes ... I was talking about 1" more clearance under the diff aka differentials ... not under the skid

regarding your and my brake upgrades ... :
I already received 3 out of 6 small boxes of my ordered 15" VancoBigBrake kit with the double piston calipers
Your Centric Premium Rotors, BlackMagic Pads and stock replacement Calipers (4 boxes in total for you) have partly arrived at empost as well as two more boxes for me ... the remaining boxes have arrived two days ago at the UAE distribution center/airport customs and should be ready at the empost office tomorrow or saturday latest
I will pickup whatever is there tomorrow and the rest on saturday ... yipppieh!

And of course you are welcome, Bro!
Actually the exchange of ideas and knowledge with some smart people here is very enjoyable and makes the ad4x4 tech threads "alive"!

[ossme]

Stealing other peoples' experiences is why I opened this thread from the first place !

Update: The front axles was received from axle shop. Now Both axles were sent to sand blasting and I will receive them back on Saturday !

I will take some pictures once I get it back from the sand blasting shop !

Another very good news is the brake kit. Shafiq received every thing today ! I just can't wait to have a look !

[ossme]

Saturday's update:

The Bad:
1- the Front axle shafts issue was not solved yet. I have to wait until Monday at the earliest.
2- The front housing was sent back to sharjah again as it was not straight.

The good:
1- the rear axle was disassembled, sand blasted and now it is in the powder coating shop. I will sent you some images today.


Summary: it looks like that I'm going to lose another sand weekend..

[ossme]

ok, finally some updates:

First, the front housing have come back and this time it is straight.. !!

IMG_2090.jpg

IMG_2086.jpg

IMG_2089.jpg

It was TIG welded on Thursday and then sent to the Blasting shop.

There is some slow but non the less progress on the front axle shaft issue. New axle shafts will hopefully get sent out today.

Here is a comparison picture between the normal axle shafts and the RCV CV Chromoly axle shafts.

IMG_2041.jpg

... and if you are wondering about why I swapped my front Dana 30 with a Dana 44 then look at this picture!

IMG_2093.jpg

You can clearly see the Physical difference between the two shafts. Adding a Chromoly CV shaft will hopefully make things bomb proof !

[ossme]

The front axle is finally getting TIG welded.

Tig welding.JPG

I couldn't find a good shop to TIG weld it in Abu Dhabi So we sent it Dubai ...

[MalteJK]

I couldn't find a good shop to TIG weld it in Abu Dhabi So we sent it Dubai ...

nice! And to which shop in dubai did you take it ?
It looks quit clean & nice ?

[ossme]

Let me make sure that their work matches their shop and then I will post the name !

Here is another picture for the welding quality:

TIG welding02.jpg

It's a shop Motor Tech Recommended. Phil was kind enough to handle all the transportation.

[MalteJK]

sure ... take your time